The Westminster Tradition

How It Started v How It’s Going: 3 years of TWT

• The Westminster Tradition • Season 3 • Episode 25

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Buy a sports car or start a podcast. It all could have gone the way of a new hobby, with audio kit languishing in a drawer. Instead, this podcast has become a study and celebration of the tricky craft of public service, and it's a source of pure joy for us. 

Reflecting on three years of TWT: 

  • Humble and haphazard beginnings
  • What’s changed since the Robodebt Royal Commission 
  • Our favourite interviews, scandals, episodes
  • Lifting the veil on moments of chaos
  • Our favourite moments with listeners (and do we need an identifier for the TWT listener cohort?)
  • Learnings on the journey and things we’ve changed our minds on

And that’s a wrap for 2025. Till next year!

Alison listing all the places we’ve “recorded” sounds remarkably like Shaggy… https://youtu.be/p4qqOHllgps?si=uEHlcD6JMW9Jabng 

‘Abundance: How We Build a Better Future’ by Ezra Klein, Derek Thompson: https://www.allenandunwin.com/browse/book/Ezra-Klein,-Derek-Thompson-Abundance-9781805226055

Nigella Lawson reading ‘How to eat’ https://www.audible.com.au/pd/How-to-Eat-The-Pleasures-and-Principles-of-Good-Food-Audiobook/1473567351

Colin Firth’s indecent gravel: https://www.amazon.com/The-End-of-Affair-Graham-Greene-audiobook/dp/B0081293SO 

Anything narrated by Richard Roxburgh https://www.audible.com.au/search?searchNarrator=Richard+Roxburgh&ref_pageloadid=not_applicable&pf_rd_p=771c6463-05d7-4981-9b47-920dc34a70f1&pf_rd_r=C0M8084B840VVEERZRJ5&plink=IArL51tFosgDIpzy&pageLoadId=FlLq75E1cuzEn4oS&creativeId=adcc4fec-4d90-49d1-997e-8be21d68ce7f&ref=a_search_c3_lNarrator_1_2_1

This podcast was recorded on Kaurna land, and we recognise Kaurna elders past and present. Always was, always will be.

Now for some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers....

While we have tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don’t guarantee that we’ve got all the details right.

Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else, at thewestminstertraditionpod@gmail.com.

Thanks to PanPot audio for our intro and outro music.

'Til next time!

SPEAKER_01:

Welcome to the Westminster Tradition, where we unpack lessons for the public service. I'm Danielle Elston, Managing Director of Good Government Advisory, and I've been allowed to drive the pod today. Pea plates. I am joined today on the lands of the Ghana people by my fellow recovering public servants, Alison Lloyd Reich, Managing Director of the Good Travel Group. Hello, Danielle. And Caroline Crozabalo.

SPEAKER_02:

Hello, Danielle, and we promise not to undermine your leadership anymore.

SPEAKER_01:

We do. Look, I think this is going to be pretty loosey-goosey, girls. Today is a very self-indulgent trip down memory lane, and some of it's on request from listeners, in the sense that to answer some of the questions, they ask us a lot about the pod and making it and our reflections on it. So one of the things I tried to do, and then I will tell you gave up, is I tried to scroll back our group chat for three years. We will never be trying that again. So I'm going to rely on my memory, which is not actually as good as I thought it was. So if I remember correctly, those early commission hearings for the RoboDet were in late September 2022, and they kind of start showing grabs on the news and radio of the evidence, and that gets us in. Us and actually a group chat of another kind of four or five nerds, which I had forgotten about. Oh, yeah. One of whom wasn't very well. And as a part of the cheer-up process of being good like colleagues, we decided to kind of find her the best grabs and updates. And then we discovered that those blessed nerds at the Royal Commission were not only just like live streaming it, but you could get home at the end of the day and lie down and watch the day's proceedings of an evening. And it was more gripping than any of us kind of, I suppose, expected. I mean, we've all done a lot of work on these kinds of things, but God they ran that thing like with the with both discipline and theatre. Um, and so analysing what was being said in that group chat becomes like extensive. So it kind of goes from a group chat of did anyone want to grab coffee to more as of like a draft PhD kind of thing inside this thread. And those other rotters, our other colleagues, said we should do a podcast if we really kind of had this much interest. I remember not taking that remotely seriously. Um, Caroline, you then went to watch commission hearings live for your birthday. I did. You know? Interesting choice. And from memory, your husband gave you a pod track for Christmas or your birthday, kind of like one of those what on earth could I get this person? Again, I don't feel like it was necessarily with the yes, with direction. Um I still didn't think we were making a podcast. And then our first record attempt was in different reasons. Caroline thought we were making a podcast from we're like, surely this will be like making up knitting or whatever where like you bumped all the stuff. It was a crochet vibe. That's so true. And it'll never go anywhere. But that's okay, we'll all nod and smile. Because we were still enjoying the content, right? So we were like, we'll just kind of pretend. Then the first time we attempted to record, you had COVID and we were in different rooms in the same house.

SPEAKER_03:

Yes.

SPEAKER_01:

When we finally had six episodes done and made the music, and Caroline, you'd done a PhD on the tech and the processes that we needed, I still didn't think we were making a podcast. What did you think we were doing at this point? I don't know. What were we doing? Crocheting. When we eventually dropped those first six, we thought some of our friends might listen.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And they did, and we have made many new friends since. So before I tell you exactly how many new friends and where they are we have made, and I have to tell you, uh listeners, that they don't have the script that I have because I have I'm going to drop things on them to see if they remember much about it. Um what do you remember from that bit before we dropped the first six? Do you remember anything? Like, how did we get here?

SPEAKER_02:

Um I remember Alison making our logo, and to our great shame, she's never like, we've never actually had a proper version of it. Every time we use it. Yeah, we're like, does anyone remember the 23 kilobyteware?

SPEAKER_00:

And then promptly like deleted the free software. That's right. We never had to do it. It's 28-day free. And if you kept it after the 28 days, you had to pay for it. I was like, right now, it's complete. That I remember.

SPEAKER_01:

I'd forgotten about that, and the logo I love. Like I did not expect it. And when you came back with it, I was like, that is gorgeous.

SPEAKER_02:

Yes, it was so good. It was so good.

SPEAKER_01:

So it's been two and a half years since we dropped those six first episodes on the 1st of July 2023. And in that time, we've made 67 episodes of this podcast. We have listeners in 64 countries, which either means public administration failure travels extremely well, or some of you are using VPNs and totally VPNs. We have covered seven major failures across a couple of countries. We had 18 episodes on Robodet and interviewed seven guests, some of them multiple times across 11 interview episodes. Most of you listeners listen on Apple Podcasts, about 60 to 65% of you. 13 of you join me on Spotify, 5% join my husband on Pocket Cast, there's always going to be a rebel in the crowd. And I'm interested in the 2% of you listening on your computers, which raises questions for me about your daily workflow. Uh 90%, 90% of you listen on your phones, and mainly iPhones. So you are folding us into your commutes, your housework, and your gym sessions, which feels a bit wrong, but we really support you in those endeavors. So before we get to the reflections, post the numbers, I've got a quiz for you. Number one, how many minutes roughly do you think people have listened to us over the life of this pod?

SPEAKER_02:

Oh you're gonna make it. Yeah, this is a thousand. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, I was a hundred thousand is my guess.

SPEAKER_01:

Seven million minutes of listening to us. Oh, Liz. What? You get less for murder, people. You get less for murder. Seven million minutes of listening to us. Oh my god, those. Yeah. Yep. Sorry. Question two, what was our longest ever episode? Was it the amount of time? Probably one of the interviews.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

It was Sue Varden, and we didn't really want to stop either, but like at a at one hour 34 minutes, even when we were probably Yeah, that's a bit. Uh what's what was the shortest episode back when you still had some control over like the timing of this, Caroline?

SPEAKER_02:

Maybe it was it would have been one of those early ones, like a kind of Columbia effect or uh how not to stop something.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Well what do you think the average length back when this had proper controls around it of the first 10 episodes were when Caroline had these massively strong views about war. Strictly 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_02:

That's right. Lisa 27. Well done, Allison. 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

What is it? Now, Dee.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. My next question to you is.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, that was back when Caroline used to keep us, you know, on track. Now I've given up on that.

SPEAKER_01:

Yep. So the average length of the last 10 episodes does not meet Caroline's rules at all. We are now at 52 minutes. Oh Jesus Christ. Also, it has not meant that people have stopped listening. So it turns out it doesn't matter, Caroline.

SPEAKER_02:

Look, I have views. Oh no way we can argue about this offline. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01:

No worries. Which, my last question, which state or city in Australia loves us the most by downloading.

SPEAKER_02:

Melbourne. Melbourne. Yep. 100%.

SPEAKER_01:

Shout out to our Victorians.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, thank you, Vix.

SPEAKER_01:

So speaking of that data, Spotify rap dropped this week. And I think Alison might know the answer to this because I think I shared it with her. But my personal humiliation part of this is does anyone know how old the algorithm of Spotify thought I was?

SPEAKER_02:

No. Oh no. Someone at work, it was 74. Is it 74 for you too?

SPEAKER_01:

77. Oh, baba! That's even worse. So after reflecting on my love of 50s and 60s Motown, I've had a look at the Spotify Wrapped for the Pod, which is much kinder to all of us. Our listening time on Spotify this year is up 40%. Our follower count is up 85%. Our total audience grew 56%. I was genuinely shocked to discover that for a fair few hundred of you, we are your number one downloaded show.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh, thanks, team. And so many of you have been texting me that, actually. I'm just getting constant texts from people saying I'm your number one on wrapped. So thanks.

SPEAKER_01:

And the big one for me, where I was like, oh, this is like getting your school report card. You don't get feedback like this anymore. Um, was that Spotify listed us as a most shared show for 2025. So apparently, this little public service podcast receives more shares than 99% of all other shows, which means that many of you are evangelizing about governance failures at barbecues and school pickup. And we just love you for that. Like so much.

SPEAKER_00:

I also particularly enjoyed that the Spotify rap showed that people who love our podcast also love two other artists in particular, Taylor Swift at tracks, and the wiggles.

SPEAKER_01:

Totally out to our young parent crowd. 100%. Um, and there were some other ones like um uh the audiobooks that our listeners have listened to on Spotify was Jacinda Arden, but I thought the Ezra Klein abundance was funnier on the basis that like particularly Commonwealth public servants know that if you don't know Ezra Klein's abundance, you can't participate in conversations and meetings at the moment in Canberra. And so I'm like, oh, you listen to us, and then you listen to Ezra Klein and you're like, good, I'm ready to go.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh see, I liked the romanticy series, Sarah Ma's Crown of Thorns. And I was like, yeah, baby, I'm gonna go have a listen to that next too. Thanks, thanks, team.

SPEAKER_01:

Okay, so that's the like self-aggrandizing kind of report card. Um, and we like just could not do it without this extraordinarily bunch of loyal listeners. Going back to the beginning of RoboDet, we started the podcast because we were watching the evidence and it we had some initial reactions to it. One was, I recognize that, I've been in a meeting like that, I've seen a boss with that kind of behavior, I've thought about things like that. And when you watched it, it just felt like, oh, the world's about to change. Um, there's a need for a seismic shift in the skills and craft of public servants. Time has changed, all sorts of things have changed. This is what this Royal Commission is going to do. So, two and a half years later, Alison and Caroline, did it do that?

SPEAKER_02:

So, in thinking about this question, I went back and looked at the APSC um findings. Because I'm a nerd. Thanks, Danielle, for the riot smile you just gave in response to me saying that. Um, and one of the things I was thinking about what we'd said at the time, one of the things was that they talked about the kinds of actions that breached the code, and there were some that really resonated with us. So, expressly directing staff not to consult or collaborate with others who had a direct interest in the matter, failing to consider the impact on and capacity of staff and work quality when setting time frames, and failing to act on lawfulness or truthfulness given all the information you gain over a reasonable period of time, right? And I was trying to think about with those things in mind, and we were like, wow, that's kind of a revolutionary way of thinking about maladministration. Like that's kind of a much broader definition.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, totally.

SPEAKER_02:

Much broader. And then I was thinking about do I think that those ideas about maladministration have been internalized in the public service practice that I'm seeing? Like, I think it is a bit of a mixed bag, I'm gonna say. Like, I don't I think there are I'm not sure they have it all. Yeah, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Like, equally, I'm not sure that the Royal Commission set out to transform the public service so much as it set out to inquire into where and how and from whom uh certain conduct got you to that end point. Um, and in doing so, I think they did, like you say, have a useful summary of the types of conduct that can tend to lead one to error. Um I am disappointed that not enough individuals that had the potential to be punished were punished as strongly as they ought to. But mostly I'm disappointed that I just don't think there's been any kind of large-scale reckoning about some of the lessons, and to the extent that there has, and to the extent I hear people tell me, oh well, we can't do that anymore because of Robodebt. I they've taken entirely the wrong um risk uh from the Robodebt thing, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02:

So yeah, I mean it's interesting to record this on the day that the Saturday paper led with an item about um ministerial officers advising lobbyists and stakeholders to provide advice via disappearing app uh disappearing messages on signal because of the concern that advice would be captured by FOI. And then that makes you think about the FOI recommendations from the Royal Commission and the fact that those that the the kind of raft of legislation being considered in the parliament kind of cuts almost directly against what was recommended in the Royal Commission. So I do feel like there's something about there's something about the kind of what would I have hoped for? I would have hoped in my ideal world, I would have hoped that we would be more tolerant of the mess of public policy, more tolerant of how hard it is to get things right, and that we need to make mistakes and learn from them and correct them in the way that we go about, and that we kind of do that. And I feel like there's actually less tolerance in some ways for exposing the mess of public policy decision making. Um, and that that feels less positive to me.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. I think that there are increased conversations about how to do the work. Um, I think that they're in pockets still. So I think the Royal Commission, and I think to some extent this podcast, without being again too much of hubris where it's like we should probably have more conversations about how we think and how we do. But I think they're in pockets, and I think as you so I don't think they're systematized. I think they are led by individual good humans who want to talk a little bit more about what the job is and do it kind of with with that vulnerability of going, I don't know all the answers. But I think that's as I'm not sure it's driven by various Royal Commissions or integrity reports. I think it's driven by individuals hitting a certain age and their estrogen dropping and going, actually, I want to do something about this. I mean, I do maintain that this podcast, like some people, you know, get sports cars, others start with podcasts.

SPEAKER_02:

It is a very classic perimetopausal midlife crisis moment. Uh-huh. Actually, can I just say one thing that has changed in this context is the you know, like um the idea that policymakers should not be disconnected from their community. I do genuinely think you see a lot more systemic commitment to the idea of spending time with Frontline, and that's like been a real positive in the public service practice. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, no, I agree. So we've interviewed Sue Varden, Mike Kaiser, both former, former current secretaries, um, and uh former secretary Andrew Podger. Ministers, John Hill, Amanda Van Stone, and Tom Coots and Tonis, and Dr. Darren O'Donovan. Which one was your favourite to listen to, to get reactions from, to do either of those things? Who was what's your favourite interview?

SPEAKER_02:

Because I'm a black sheep, I'm gonna say the one you forgot, Tom Loosemore from Universal Credit. Um, but I'm not saying it's my favourite because of it, like because I'm a black sheep, but actually it was my favourite because it was uh it was nice to talk about something working.

SPEAKER_00:

Hmm, I agree. Uh my favourite was Amanda Van Stone. I thought she was hilarious but insightful and really had lessons that weren't just for ministers and weren't just for public servants, but aimed at helping both understand each other.

SPEAKER_01:

I thought my answer was going to be um ministers Koots and Tonus or Amanda Van Stone, just because they are both such plain spoken, they gave such great copy, they were both incredible fun to actually do in the room. But actually, having had a look through the list this morning, I think it's Sue Varden for a couple of reasons. Um, to to have such a clear and clinical memory of what something was supposed to be, and then be able to go back as to what it turned into. I mean, effectively that's a lot of what we do in our some of our leadership working on the pod is like what was I trying to do and how did I not get there and and and why not and what can we know about that? And so um just the depth of understanding and the like I I think it was actually Sue Vaden um for me.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah, yeah. And I find I quote it most actually of the ones that I'm if I'm ever quoting something, I I sort of say, oh yeah, Sue Vaden talked about this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, and that's interesting. So that's what I'm like. So the quoting part, I mean we I we quote, I quote you both. Like back at you.

SPEAKER_02:

All right, yeah, same.

SPEAKER_01:

And the worst bit is because this is a public podcast, I previously probably would have stolen your thoughts and ideas and not attributed them.

SPEAKER_00:

Badged them as my own, obviously.

SPEAKER_01:

100%. And now I feel this ridiculous obligation to attribute back to you all every time I quote you. Um, but outside of individuals, we've covered Robodet, Essendon, the Post Office, the Queensland payroll, Pink Bats, Universal Credit, Oakden. Which of these stories and the lessons from them do you actually quote or refer to most often in your like day-to-day kind of conversations?

SPEAKER_00:

Um probably the universal credit, actually, in terms of the importance of someone holding the vision. And I talk a bit about uh Boss on the Floor from Oakden as well.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah. Yeah, that's so interesting. Me too, universal credit uh is very much, and I think it's part of that as well, that positive vision. Like it's a much easier story to tell. So I think there's something for us to think about there. Um but uh the other one uh for me is there's in the post office stuff, there's just there's a few little like that kind of um the buying the dot ICT system and why you might and the Jeff Mulgan advice about it. Like I do find myself often talking about how you can kind of end up making terrible. Decisions anyway. So that one too.

SPEAKER_00:

I do use the Jeff Mulgan written advice all the time. Incredible.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, right. How about you? I I I so I use universal credit and I quote them a lot more. I think partly exactly what you just said, Caroline, which is I like to tell people that there's a happy ending. Um like I I was a speaker at an end-of-year event and I was like, I am not giving anybody misery for Christmas, and they will think they're getting it when I start telling them about how universal credit kind of slipped down. But I'm gonna tell them how it all came good in the end. Um that said, I probably still use a lot of RoboDet. Partly just because of the, I think the granular amount of when you're working with someone or you're talking about an issue, there's always an example in Robodet where you're like, that's like this, that's like that. Um there's just so much, there was so much in it. So I think universal credit, because I'm trying to again be slightly more chipper about our craft and practice, but still use Robodet quite a lot. All right, let's lift the veil a little bit. Podcasts have become much more prevention professional since we started this. Uh, they're all over Bloom and YouTube in proper studios with like props. Um, we have become less professional and slightly more chaotic. Um, aside from the fact that we would just could never have video recordings of this. I mean, if the public could see whatever those boxes of things are currently behind you, Caroline, um, and the state of all of us on a Saturday afternoon. Um, I don't know if we'd ever get any work again. Um But we've had some pretty unhinged recordings in trying to push this thing out once a fortnight. What are some of the most unhinged memories you have of trying to get this podcast out amongst lives, commitments, travel, that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, Alice was thinking, I w I knew this might be a theme of questions, so I asked Chat GPT to review our transcripts and pull out like interesting things that I might want to tease you about. And I love it. Totally got who said this wrong, and that's brilliant as well. It says Alison announcing, all right, we're having lunch or what during an interview, which was actually Amanda Van Stone who said, but would be totally on brand.

SPEAKER_01:

I just think the AI knew that like it could have been Allison, right?

unknown:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02:

But it does capture some of the chaos, even though it's not strictly true. It's like feelings true for me on that one.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh, I mean, any number of times we have forgotten an essential piece of kit to record something. Uh we've tried and narrated here.

SPEAKER_02:

Like Mac to draw away to the coast with the one connecting thing that we had not got.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Mac. Good on you, Matt, starling. And the number of times we've had to then go and raid like a teenager's room to see if they had a cord or a spare something to see if we could pull this off.

SPEAKER_00:

Um we've recorded on the couch, on the floor, uh on around the kitchen table, around a trestle table.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, I see. My like strongest memory of chaos was I really didn't think we'd get the caretaker episode recorded because we just didn't have enough time and we did it on the floor, and then I couldn't get off the floor. We had to leave to go to an event.

SPEAKER_00:

We recorded it in beanbags, so we're trying not to rustle throughout the recording. Stay still.

SPEAKER_01:

Look, it has been chaotic.

SPEAKER_00:

Danielle and I both had to roll onto our sides onto the floor in order to get out of the beanbag.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Hands and knees, safety first for the low mobility crowd.

SPEAKER_00:

Just in case people listening at home think that we're classic professional ladies. I need you to know.

SPEAKER_01:

Undernoses. So, what else has changed though about how we've done this? I mean, I I would say that the advent of the online recording has I don't think we could still have put these out every fortnight if we were still trying to be in the same state, let alone the same place with the right chord. Like the level of things that had to happen to go right to always do it in person.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Was a lot of things. Like you had to be in the same state, get there, and then you had to find a teenager to drive you the thing that you forgot before you could get started. So I think the advent of online has meant we've been able to interview different people that we wouldn't have been able to otherwise and turn up to record when we wouldn't have otherwise. What else do you think has kind of changed?

SPEAKER_00:

But it is harder for me to cut you all off online than in the room where I can indicate that it might be time to bring the plane in for a landing. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Easier to dodge your eye contact, mate, when down the barrel I can just turn the camera off.

SPEAKER_00:

Which uh which is to say I need people to know because in public people sometimes uh come to me with ideas of the podcast, which of course I do share, but I also say um I'm not actually the bottom boss of the podcast. I'm just the boss when the mic's off. Now Caroline's the boss of the podcast. Caroline's the boss, just to be clear.

SPEAKER_02:

And I think one of the things that has changed. One of the things that has changed, and I wrote a little a little speech I wanted to give at this point, is like it's hard doing a thing with friends, right? Like, and it's hard doing what's essentially a work product with friends with no boss. Like, that's really hard. And we're three bosses ourselves. And when I think about what's changed, I think it's like I have relaxed into being less controlling. I have been very grateful for you guys letting that happen in a way that didn't like. I mean, you know, there's a different world where this was was really tough on our friendship, but it hasn't been. And I just like I just think I don't know, what's changed is it has become a pure unalloyed joy for me. And I reckon in the first year it was harder. And I do just want to acknowledge I know it was harder for you guys as well. And I love you, and I'm so glad we stuck with it because actually the sticking with it has got us out the other side where it's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah. Oh, I didn't prepare a speech, but I have a rather supply response, which is you are still the boss, but also for all of our gentle and loving ribbing, this wouldn't have happened, and it certainly wouldn't have kept happening. Um, Alison and I would have floated off into the remember when that time when we reported six episodes of a podcast and never uploaded them anywhere distance. When we take a crocheting, you mean?

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Your total determination.

SPEAKER_00:

I still have half a granny square somewhere. It's so true.

SPEAKER_01:

Your hard work, particularly on the technical side and um pushing us. I I want to say thank you, and that I'm very grateful for because the pod has changed so much of my life, which, as I said, I would have drifted off into the are you serious at Sunday. I have other work I need to do. Um, had you not been like, won't take long, you'll be fine. Come on, let's go. Closer to the mic, turn it around. No, not like that, not like that, not like that. Stop flapping, stop banging. Crazy lady.

SPEAKER_02:

Oh bless. Anyway, I'm from the mushy stuff.

SPEAKER_01:

What's next, D? Um, favorite episodes to either record or because of how it landed. See, some of the one I reckon recording is like an exam. You know, when you walk out of an exam and we've got young people in our life who've done that recently, and you've actually got no idea whether it's any good or and um unless you listen back to it. So it doesn't have to be to have recorded it, but either recording it or how it landed.

SPEAKER_00:

I'm there. I I don't need to listen to it later. Both Caroline and Danielle do listen to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01:

Like sometimes when I'm really depressed, edit out any stupidity, mate. Like we listen back for the edit. So that's actually because I'm cool, I was there. My argument to that is someone has to do the sense fact check at the end and cover your ass. I love that.

SPEAKER_02:

But for me, it's actually I listen because sometimes I am just like overwhelmed with work and everything is feeling too big and too depressing, and I'm in another state, and I don't have, and it's just like it's a way of having a chat with you guys without having to like bother you while you're busy. I love listening to it because it's just like having friends around, right? Yeah. So anyway.

SPEAKER_00:

And may I also recommend for that particular niche in your life um Nigella Lawson reading how to eat on Audible. Incredible. Oh, brilliant. Like nothing to soothe anxiety, like Nigella telling you how to make mayonnaise. Nothing.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, my life's my life's work is to get Richard Roxborough reading anything. The phone book would be fine.

SPEAKER_02:

Well, you know, Colin Perth does the end of the affair, and it's like frankly indecent how much gravel he puts in his voice in that particular reading. I'm just saying.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh anyway, favorite sorry, favorite episodes.

SPEAKER_01:

I'm not doing a very good job of banging Allison and bossing us around. Favourite episodes, ladies, what were they?

SPEAKER_00:

Um, I most, I mean, they're recent ones, but I most enjoyed recording the scenarios. Uh, but I also really enjoyed our uh episode on the human handbreak report. And actually, you were talking about what do we quote a lot of. I quote a lot of the human handbreak report. Love that.

SPEAKER_02:

Um for me, there's two. One is the Columbia Effect episode, and I love it because it's like actually it came out of like a genuine conversation the three of us were having about this, and like it just perfectly distills just a moment in a thing where things go wrong, and it's like it's such a good lesson, and it's such a tight story. So I love that. And the other one, I just today I was re-listening to the one that we published on the um when the APSC put out its Robodet findings. I don't know, Danielle, if you remember that you got us to put at the end the Jeb Bartlett um quote where he's talking about, you know, sometimes you just get it wrong. Like there is just so much gold in that particular episode. It really summarizes heaps of themes for me, and it's humane and funny and um and and not smug. And I just I was listening to it and I just I I felt the wisdom of it again. I'm like, God, how did we have such smart things to say about that?

SPEAKER_01:

Well, West Wing quotes. I mean, I can be them on spec any day of the week for anything, for child raising, you name it. There's a Keating quote or a West Queen quote for all contexts.

SPEAKER_00:

And also, if you know the West Wing quote but can't find what episode it appears in, Danielle knows that too. If you check out, the quote on the smug though, I am I am always conscious that that we try not to appear like we have all the answers. And certainly for me, a motivation around Robodet was a very strong kind of there, but for the grace of God go I sense that I've been a part of public sector projects that didn't go that wrong, but could have. And I've been in meetings and seen behaviours and all the kinds of types of things that that contributed to RoboDet. Anyway, now I've got us off track. Danielle, favourite episode?

SPEAKER_01:

No, no, no, no. I think that that's interesting. I um I'm not sure if I have a paper episode, but today I went back and accidentally found when the Robodet Royal Commission report dropped because we'd actually we actually did the first eight, nine episodes or whatever it is, before the report dropped. And I had, I suppose I'd forgotten how impactful. So I don't think the episode is actually that valuable, so no one else needs to go listen to it, but I was just struck that when you and I were talking about it the week at launch Carol landed Caroline kind of how much it whacked us both in the solar plexus, how beautiful a report it was, how plain the recommendations were. No one was trying to demonstrate that they, you know, they could do a 50-word sentence with a word salad. Like Commissioner Holmes wrote it like it was just beautiful, basically, and that I had forgotten how we were kind of quite knocked sideways when we read it for the first time. Um, so yeah. So let's face it, we don't make money from this, and it takes time. So our buckets are not filled with money by it, but instead the dopamine and serotonin of the constant stream of feedback from our awesome listeners. That's true. Do you have a favorite bit of feedback aside from that one star review from that teenager in the first year it was? Um and you know, it's fine, we've moved on, it's fine. It was three years ago, I'm totally on. Like I've I've definitely forgotten that one-star review to all the five-star reviews. Um, I will find you, hunt you down, and give you a poor Uber rating. Um, but your favourite bits of listener feedback.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh, for me, the appearing on stage at the Ansog um conference, you guys have been there all day, and I just kind of came in cold from something else, and it was like it was it was just awesome to feel the kind of sense that people felt seen by the things that so it was just that that's what I really like is like I'm like, oh yeah, no, people really feel like we're capturing something about their lives in this conversation and getting the live feedback with applause is literally like pushing all of my gold star seeking buttons. Alison?

SPEAKER_00:

Uh someone very recently said that she felt like listening to our episodes was like eavesdropping on a table of brilliant ladies having lunch, and I was very touched by that.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, you wouldn't ask for a shower to be at lunch, but which I haven't today yet. But um What about you? Oh, I like it when um that the I like the feedback that's specific that comes in through the LinkedIn and the all sorts of mechanisms, where they're like, I was in a meeting today and I remembered when you guys said X and I did Y. Because um, as much as I deeply like just the rock star nerd quotient of it and walking out at the AnSog Regulators Conference was like the closest to a rock star I am ever gonna feel.

SPEAKER_03:

So true.

SPEAKER_01:

And the really specific bit where I feel like for all of those reports Caroline has forced me to read, or the times I didn't want to record, it's when people tell you they've done something really specifically different that that kind of feedback, I just feel like that was totally worth all the times I did not want to figure out what the point of the human handbrake was, and it's like it was worth it because people are gripping it up in a practical way, and I'm probably just inherently really practical. Um, but what I didn't really expect when this kicked off was back to that rock, the rock star part is people would come up to me in meetings. Sometimes I've I've I've been doing trainings of 100 people online, and there'll be something in the group chat saying, Is this the lady from the podcast? Um it's not the lady, that's for sure. Sorry. If one of us was gonna be late, it sure as hell wouldn't be me. That's for sure. Um it's the chick from the podcast. Um and I've had someone like say ask me a question in the airport. What have been your favorite experiences of running into listeners in the wild? And my other one is not to like steal from um Annabelle and Lee, but I feel like listeners is boring. Like if anyone's got a good name for you guys as a cohort, I am totally up for giving you a name. That's my 2026 challenge. Tell us something we can stop calling you our pod listeners and start calling you something.

SPEAKER_00:

Westmonsters.

SPEAKER_02:

West monsters. Westmonsters sound no, no, hard go. Uh mine is running into running into mismas in the wild, ladies. Go for a mide. It comes from just this last week. Uh, I was in a meeting with a bunch of um public servants uh talking about a tricky thing, like a kind of trying to nut through a whatever. And I emailed one of the people in the meeting afterwards and I said, you know, I just really respected how you did you kind of you worked through a tricky ethical issue kind of really thoughtfully and bravely and blah, blah, blah. And she emailed back and said, This means so much to me. I'm a huge PUB fan. And I was just like, that is delightful. Like that was, yeah, that was just, it was beautiful. Because I was like, oh, I was just giving feedback, but now I know that feedback even meant more to her. So shout out.

SPEAKER_01:

I so Caroline, I would say you and I are pretty good on the email and the LinkedIn responding messages. Uh, and listeners may not know this, but uh two of us are introverts, one of us is an extrovert. Hi, Alison. Thanks for repping us for the people who want to meet up. Tell us about your running into people in the wild.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh I just I appreciate the bravery of every person that's like, hi, I listened to a podcast. Would you be interested in? And of course, it's it always goes like this anytime, sometime, maybe. I mean, if it's not inconvenient, having a drink of coffee. Hell yeah, anytime. Hit me up.

SPEAKER_01:

So, like, is that like we're gonna create a like a Tinder grinder app for like nerds? It's like where you travel for work and you're like, okay, near this cafe, there are four other people who would like to talk about governance failures. Ping them now to join you in this coffee line. I love that idea and literally taking that. Like, we are gonna do that. So, strong opinions held loosely. That is us, right? Very strong opinions, and occasionally contrarians. I think potentially listeners, you think that we take opposite sides of an argument because we've thought about it, crafted it, and it's in the script. Sometimes I just want to disagree with Caroline for like absolute shits and giggles.

SPEAKER_00:

Um mostly this is the basis of literally all of our communication, though. Yeah. So it's not put on for the pod.

SPEAKER_01:

There are hundreds of hours of our opinions strongly held, strongly worded but held reasonably loosely, now out in the ether. Um for me, sometimes when I listen back to an episode we've just recorded to send it off to our lovely um audio producer Adam, I disagree with myself before I've even published it. I'm like, oh, I made that sound like I felt one of them was I was in a mood the day we recorded, I don't know what the episode was, but we were talking about where they're having a named lead of big reforms. Made a difference to their success, must be universal credit. And you two are like, absolutely, if you're Gonsky or this and that, I was just like, I hate this idea. I have uh someone in my life who worked extensively on one of Australia's most massive reforms that has someone else's name over the top of it. Um, and I listened back and was like, wow, that was a strong opinion that you don't actually hold because you were clearly tired. So having put your very strongly worded opinions out into the world for like the last two and a half years, Caroline and Allison, what have you changed your mind about?

SPEAKER_00:

To be honest, I'm not sure I recogni recollect well enough. This is the thing she doesn't know. What has she said? What have I said? Uh uh there was an episode that was released recently that was recorded when I was just viciously hungover from attending a wedding the night before. And someone who I know very well in real life texted me and was like, Is it possible that in the latest episode you are very hungover? So I'm not sure that that was my finest offering.

SPEAKER_01:

Um have you changed your opinion on regulators though, Alison? Like I feel like you've had a bit of this.

SPEAKER_00:

I have.

SPEAKER_01:

I have I feel like you've had you've gone from like, oh, they're boring people to falling a little bit in love with our regulator crowd. Have I misunderstood that?

SPEAKER_00:

No, I have just a much greater appreciation for what regulators are doing and the difficulty of the environment that they're doing in, particularly from uh the time that we spent uh at the NR COP conference in Brisbane, but yeah, generally um some other engagement across other events as well. I have a I have a more nuanced view of what regulators do, and I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02:

Carol, I think I have gone on a journey that I don't like to acknowledge I had to go on, but like I think I have gone on a on a journey largely prodded by you, Danielle, about um about the wisdom of the frontline and thinking through like I think I always thought and kind of knew those things, you know, sort of, but I think I really have have become much more humble about the ability of big brains to conceptualize and design solutions to problems, even informed by. And I think that's why I'm so interested in test and learn and kind of because I now actually no longer really believe anyone is gonna ever come up with a a good upfront design. Like I actually, like I in fact, as I'm saying, I might know this is really the journey I've been on from the idea that you should involve lived experience and kind of come up with something. I now actually think that's never gonna be enough and you always need to do another thing, and that's been a learning on the journey. Specifically, though, I did just want to shout out on our last um Buzzware Bingo episode, I was listening back to it and we were all bemoaning the co-design um uh mania and the way in which kind of a commitment to co-design is kind of false and and performative, not false, but performative in government. Um I do feel like we, of course, missed the other side of the conversation, and Daddy Old tried to bring us back to it a little bit. Like um, there is a lot of performative commitment to co-design. There's also just a lot of announcing stuff and doing stuff. And like I feel like I wouldn't have to do that. I mean, yes, obviously. Exactly. Um that's I think that's not a thing I've changed my mind about, but it's a thing that I kind of yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, I think uh listening to a few of particularly the early ones, that strong opinions held loosely apart is I feel less sure about everything as more time goes on. And I I make a number of statements about change management in some of those early episodes and the Colton Sultan who came in and met with the compliance team that I I just I'm not sure I don't dis it's not that I disagree with them now, I'm just like, but there are five answers. There are five answers to these things, and I've given one, um, and so I haven't changed my mind about that one. I just wish that I like I I'm more like when I hear it back, I think well it's it's reductive, like you just said X is Y and black is white or whatever else, and when I think about it, actually I've changed my mind on it being that simple or that clear. Because sometimes it's very easy to mark other people's homework, right? Those who can do, those who can't teach or podcast. Um and and so sometimes it's like I've I've look at stuff that I've said and I think it's not that I've changed my mind, although sometimes I've just completely changed my mind, but a lot of the time it's that oh that's really only one of four ways you could think about it, and I don't hold that opinion nearly as strongly as it has kind of come across.

SPEAKER_00:

Um I guess the other thing that that it's not so much a change, but I think at various points um various of our more junior burger listeners have asked us to reflect more deeply on how to handle things when you are not in a leadership position. And I really appreciate that feedback, and it's we're trying, it's harder to do than it seems. Um because sometimes you have so little control in when you're not in a leadership position that your choices are either or fuck off elsewhere.

SPEAKER_01:

Um that is hard, and shout out to to all of you living that. Um we don't edit much anymore. I'm not sure if it's got we've gotten much tighter or we're just like much lazier. But with the benefit of reflection, are there bits you wish you had edited out, or have we edited something out that you are now prepared to cough up to our totally trustworthy listeners and the entire internet?

SPEAKER_02:

I would say to kick off already. Oh yeah, I was gonna say you've already outed one for me because you talked about the text chain that this started on. And if you recall, guys, the original title of this podcast was Robodet Text Chain. And we decided not to call it that because we were worried about our text chain being FOI. And in fact, in an early episode, we removed reference to us being on a text chain because we were we were still government employees at the time and we were worried about it. I feel like now I'm probably less I would I wonder if we've changed our position on that.

SPEAKER_01:

I mean, I I am glad I fought the good fight not to have the word Robodet in it because that would have been limiting. And I named the pod and I still maintain that it's an excellent name in the same way that Allison's logo is very excellent. Um, I deeply regret being vulnerable enough to leave in from that on the floor episode in Mannham that it hadn't occurred to me until that very day as a lifelong South Australian that Murray Bridge was in fact called Murray Bridge because it has a bridge over the Murray. Like, leaving aside all the people who come up and give us pod feedback, I am lucky in this town to make it through a fortnight without someone saying, I'm not taking advice from the person.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01:

It took 46 years to figure out that Murray Bridge had a bridge over the Murray. And I wish I'd edited that out because I think that's been more career limiting than any of the other dumb bits of advice I've ever done or given, or any speech slip-ups, or whatever else. Look, so I would do anything to take that out.

SPEAKER_00:

That they realized way too late in life. Uh I didn't know for a very long time, and I still can only see it if I really force myself that the Australia Post logo is a P.

SPEAKER_03:

Oh I didn't know that till just then is like a movie.

SPEAKER_02:

All right. Um we can vest mine now, but I have so many. But Alison, can you remember? I've got there's so many.

SPEAKER_01:

Wish you'd edited it out, or wish we hadn't edited it out. Come on, give me some more.

SPEAKER_00:

Uh I mean, uh there I uh are we going to are we going to play bloopers in this episode?

SPEAKER_01:

We can, if we can go find them. We do have one great blooper. So should we insert it at this point here and just leave it to the listeners to figure out why and how it was edited out?

SPEAKER_02:

You don't swick a flip flicker switch and move from A to B across everything, right? Like you do it incrementally from one thing to another.

SPEAKER_01:

Um man, I held on so well during this recording. You did all my swick a flick. That was the first time I went down with both of you. So I was until then I wouldn't. Sorry. But I went straight down with you both. Okay.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh all right, we have the unexpected switch of flip flip. Switch the flip. Yeah, we'll edit all of that one.

SPEAKER_01:

So we've just put that one back in. As I said, we do not edit much out, but sometimes we misspeak in a way that uh has a onomatopoeia that is of weirdness. Um bringing it home, ladies, unexpected joys. Because let's face it, for all of this smoosh and whatever else, it has been so much fun. Um, the mug people, man. Like I discovered today that I suggested a mug with what would Colleen do on the back in episode nine, and you both were like, who the hell would want a mug? So, firstly, again, I win, and I got to prepare this episode, which is why I get to win all the games. Um and you were like, Why would anyone want a mug? Um I have found an unexpected joy in the lengths people are now going to, and also like it's a pride of place in various offices, and I find that joyful. Um, I think some of the phrases we have come up with, Alison. Can you think of any of those phrases that have been?

SPEAKER_00:

Not all ministers. Uh when I'm doing training about things ministers might tend to do or not tend to do. But not all of them. Not all of them. Hashtag, not all ministers. Um because I uh mostly don't listen to the podcast once it's released. I'm always delighted every time I hear the fiend music, uh, which I love. So good job in that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02:

Another thing we don't actually own or have the copy of.

unknown:

Anyway.

SPEAKER_00:

Of course it's.

SPEAKER_02:

No, we don't. Like, I mean, Adam has it. Anyway, if Adam is hit by a bus, we are in trouble, is what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you, Adam. This is probably also a good time after two and a half years to acknowledge Adam of Pampa Audio who takes our heavy breathing, banging, children in the background, dogs. There have been the dogs of so pod. There've been a lot of dogs of the pod over time, and it is his job to turn this into something you can all actually hear and listen to, which we'd make absolutely not easy at all for him. So Merry Christmas and thank you very much to Adam. Caroline, unexpected joys.

SPEAKER_02:

Uh, I often end a meeting now by saying till next time.

SPEAKER_00:

So that's a joy for me. Someone did text me with hello Allison the other day. It's so true.

SPEAKER_01:

Oh, this episode will come out after you get your Christmas presents, but that I'm glad that you are particularly fond of the number of people. Also, I think when we were at an event together, a bunch of people were telling us that Caroline and I say hello Alison in exactly the same tone every single episode. Um, and that it's like a repeatable kind of brain click for those. And I I didn't wasn't aware that you and I say hello Allison or however we do it in the same sense. Um okay, our final mug winner for the year has lifted the bar yet again. Rachel Mazach uh has started a new job in September, and at the same time, we took her podcast. Uh she'd never done a podcast before. I won't uh and so she listened to ours as her very first podcast. And in the very particular way we often have, she devoured the entire Westminster tradition backlog in two weeks. Uh, she listened while writing and driving and doing the housework and then folded all of that thinking into a retro craft project. She used to crochet uh blankets based on the books she'd read, but she kind of went off reading for a little while. And so she is now doing each square on some on a podcast she's listened to. And our square is bright and joyful and slightly eccentric, which feels incredibly on brand. Um, what really struck us was her reflection that the show gave her new knowledge, clarified opinions, and a renewed pride in being a public servant. And if I can Merry Christmas to all of our listeners, please do have that pride. I thank you for your service. I mean that genuinely, and I'm slightly emotional. I really am grateful for all your hard work. Uh, that is the whole point of what we are trying to do here. So, Rachel, thank you for stitching your way us into your year. Your mug is on its way to you now. Till next time.

SPEAKER_02:

Just some appropriately bureaucratic disclaimers. While we've tried to be as thorough in our research as busy full time jobs and lives allow, we definitely don't guarantee that we've got all the details right. Please feel free to email us corrections, episode suggestions, or anything else at the Westminster Tradition Pod at gmail.com. Thanks to Pampot Audio for our intro and outro music. Till next time.